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Forum Logo Ranking Algorithm Update


ADMIN

ajleroux
2018-05-08

A small change to the logo ranking algorithm: We don't want very popular logos to disappear over time. Logos that pass 1,000 views are now treated as "famous" logos and receive a boost in the rankings.



DESIGNER
TomLon
2018-05-08

[Post removed]



ADMIN
ajleroux
2018-05-09

Hi TomLon,

Thanks for your feedback. You are absolutely right. I removed your post because I don't want to give bad guys ideas about how to manipulate the system.

I'm not too worried about this happening. The benefit gained by manipulating the system in the way you described is very small and the amount of time/effort required is disproportionately large. It would be a bad use of one's time. A user who tried manipulating the system in this way would quickly fall behind another user who spends his/her time creating logos :)



DESIGNER
TomLon
2018-05-09

@Andre

It's OK, maybe I should send my post internally. :)
Some logos can be made in a few hours, some in a few days, depending on inspiration and ideas. In the meantime, an hour of relaxation can be utilized in the way I have described it. Personally, I will use this one hour to review new logos.
It will show if there will be system manipulation.
Let's hope there will not be that.
At least I will never do such a thing personally. I publicly promise. :)



ADMIN
ajleroux
2018-05-09

Thanks TomLon. Noted :)



DESIGNER
TomLon
2018-05-09

Thank you, too, Andre! :)



DESIGNER
Uimitor
2018-05-29

Even if initial post #2 was deleted, it is obvious what was said because of the #4 post, maybe post #4 must be edited. No disrispect to tom. Can administrator confirm that nobody is doing this manipulation? Should we be worry?

Uimitor



DESIGNER
Alkavect Logo
2018-05-29

I missed the news, by the way, what kind of system manipulation was Tom doing?



ADMIN
ajleroux
2018-05-29

Just to be clear: TomLon wasn't trying to manipulate the system. He merely pointed out what he thought may be a weakness in the system, so that we can fix it before someone takes advantage of it. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

It involves a fairly time-consuming way to inflate logo views for your logos.

The algorithm and flagging system is designed in such a way that designers who try to manipulate the system stand out like a sore thumb. Often they do more harm than good to their own rankings, in which case we leave them to it. If they find a way to gain an unfair advantage, we delete the account.



DESIGNER
TomLon
2018-05-29

@Uimitor
@Alkavect Logo

Don't worry. :)

In my first comment, I slightly described the possibility of manipulation in a ruthless way, in order to warn the LG team that fix such attempts through the script. It was also an instruction that bad guys could do it. That's why Andre has removed my comment with a reason.
Such a form of manipulation would require a strong obsessive-compulsive disorder of individuals. :)
Personally, I consider that all designers here on LG are absolutely positive, normal and good people, but ..., there is always "but ...". :)

Andre explained that there was no confusion.
Everything is under control. :)

All the best!



DESIGNER
Alkavect Logo
2018-05-30

I know people in LG is a very sportsman
I really believe that, because from the first time I send a logo on LG I always get input and support from them on how to create a good and professional logo :)



DESIGNER
kassymkulov
2020-03-30

Is this rule still active?
I have one sold (for which I don't think the rule applies) and one unsold logo that passed this mark some time ago, but I didn't notice any change on its ranking, still placed at the same place.



DESIGNER
AMX
2020-03-30

is the rule applied only on non-sold logo??



DESIGNER
Fbastiart
2020-03-30

Keep it up!



ADMIN
ajleroux
2020-03-30

Hi kassymkulov,

Yes, this is still part of the algorithm. It uses a sliding scale. If a logo passes 1,000 views it will initially receive just a very small ranking boost. As views climb higher, the boost becomes bigger.

It applies equally to sold and unsold logos, but sold logos are pushed down in the rankings. The ranking "penalty" a logo gets for being sold is substantial and will probably outweigh the boost it gets from reaching the "famous" category.



DESIGNER
Ortega Graphics
2020-03-30

Ajleroux,

Above you said that "As views climb higher, the boost becomes bigger", but in April 2019, you said that "Views is one of the few negative ranking factors. As views go up, ranking (very slowly) goes down."
https://www.logoground.com/discuss.php?topic=1079#9216

So, at which point does the scale tips over? Can you please clarify?

Thank you,

Ortega Graphics



ADMIN
ajleroux
2020-03-30

Ortega Graphics, views always count against a logo, but with a famous logo (above 1,000 views) the negative effect of views becomes smaller. In hindsight I think that the use of the word "boost" is perhaps not the best choice. It is a boost in the sense that its overall effect on the logo ranking is positive, but it cannot tip the scales because it doesn't add positive ranking, it reduces negative ranking - if that makes sense?



DESIGNER
Brandmaistro
2020-03-30
Edited 2020-03-30 by Brandmaistro permalink ANCHOR

So... 100 views is better than 600, unless it 1000+ ?
It that right?

It means that when you share logos online (and therefore the views increase exponentially) it doesn't work to your advantage, unless you have an insanely popular logo (over the years perhaps), which has at least 1000 lovely viewers.

So for the most of the logos here it takes months (or even years) to reach the 1000+.



ADMIN
ajleroux
2020-03-30

Nope, 999 views are still better than 1,001 views. But above 1,000 the negative effect of more views becomes smaller.

Think of a boat. Everything adds buoyancy to the boat - if your designer ranking goes up, if you earn a new badge, if a logo earns likes etc. This all adds to the buoyancy like sticking foam panels on your boat. Time and views are like sand poured into the boat. The older a logo becomes and the more views it accumulates the more weight is poured into the boat and it sinks lower. If no more foam is added it disappears from view eventually. The famous logos mechanism means that a new view adds a grain of sand, not a teaspoon of sand, but it still adds sand.

I love analogies - which doesn't mean I'm any good at them. I hope this one makes sense. :)

It can seem counter-intuitive to penalize logos for getting views, but:

1. The penalty is very small. One like can add enough buoyancy to carry many views.

2. If a logo gets many views, few likes and it isn't purchased it makes sense to give other logos a chance.

It is definitely still worth promoting the logo through social media. The views that you are adding does very little damage to the logo ranking and can result in likes. Not to mention sales, which increases your designer ranking, which adds foam to all your other logos.



DESIGNER
sculptor
2020-03-31
Edited 2020-03-31 by sculptor permalink ANCHOR

Reading this discussion I get a growing impression that current ranking system is so complicated and counter intuitive that nobody can fully grasp it.

I understand the need to promote new logos but whole idea of ranking gets undermined in this process. When you have old logos slowly climbing in the ranking and you drop new logos ahead of them it ruins the purpose of the ranking. How come that suddenly a week old logo with 60 views and 3 favorites has better ranking than old one with thousands of views and many followers? It's illogical and counter intuitive.

Of course it's easier to criticize than to come up with something better. Thinking of better system I would start from changing the name of the filter:
The one with the current algorithm I would call: "Recommended" or "Editor's Choice" or "Best Buy" or "Certified Fresh"- or whatever except "Ranking".

No need to add that it's just my humble opinion and I still appreciate all efforts of the staff to promote out logos.



DESIGNER
kassymkulov
2020-03-31

@Ajleroux
Interestingly, that made sense to me ;) Thanks for the metaphors.

@sculptor
I actually like the current algorithm, otherwise our profile pages would look pretty much the same much of the time unless sorted by upload date. I've noticed the same behavior on sites like Shutterstock, they also circulate designs to give a chance on selling for every logo.



DESIGNER
Gregory M
2020-03-31

The issue is we are being flodded with derrivetives and quality original creations drown in the sea of wannabe garbage and copycat creations. You post a unique logo and give it time youl get another "prodigy" making "his" version. Except it can be clearly traced back to yours in shape and style. Other designers wont remember because they are not as memorable with your body of work as you, but you will. It will be right on the edge of deniability.

Long time ago i suggested a limit to new designers joining the site. Perhaps we could have an examination system implemented. I saw some other platforms require multiple samples of own work to be posted. Perhaps start with 10 and when the tide stops a bit lower to 5. This way we would stem the tide of garbage in the review system, and perhaps lower the pressure on good designers to work super fast thus get more quality out of them. There is a reason why recently there were sales drops and in this crisis i expect problems to pile up, not just less sales.



DESIGNER
AMX
2020-03-31

@Gregory,

Can't agree more...



ADMIN
ajleroux
2020-03-31

Gregory M, just to clarify, there was no recent drop in sales. Sales for February and the first part of March were high. It only dropped when the COVID-19 pandemic hit and I'm sure we will be breaking records again soon.



DESIGNER
Gregory M
2020-03-31

Yes i know, i was referring to the situation late last year. I also saw and heard others had issues altho not maybe in that exact moment but i would presume within last few months.

And with the pandemic im expecting the worst and hoping for the best as per my usual mode of being.

Concider the examination form to be implemented, saw other websites do that. This wave of poor designs may not end if everyone is locked up in homes looking for a quick buck online.



ADMIN
ajleroux
2020-03-31

We have discussed the entry exam a few times here on the forum. In short: Reviewing 100 entry exams per day wouldn't be much different from seeing 100 new designers uploading logos. Most designers give up after 10 or 20 declined logos. I think limiting the uploads of specific designers, as we now do, is the best way.



DESIGNER
kassymkulov
2020-03-31

It might've also started from those videos on YouTube about Logoground. Here's a description from one of the freshest videos:
"No experience needed to make money on LogoGround, all you need is to sign up and start earning, simple as that."



DESIGNER
Gregory M
2020-03-31
Edited 2020-03-31 by Gregory M permalink ANCHOR

When they would post lets say 5 or 10 designs and you see them cumulatively from one person and they are clearly calling to heaven for vengeance you can just click away the account and you reviewed 10 spam "designs" in a flash. It also initially limits the account to only 5 -10 uploads. Instead of someone spaming their 40 abominations he made in an afternoon.

Might make the process quicker.

It also sends a clear message that quality matters.

In essence you are increasing the bar for designers to attempt to work here - which means only the people taking this more seriously will bother, and also putting initial limits to posting attempts which makes them each more valuable.



ADMIN
ajleroux
2020-03-31

Yes, we have a way to group a designer's pending logos and to bulk decline that group with one click. Bulk decline sounds extreme, but we still scroll through all the designer's logos and only use bulk decline if that's the right decision for every logo in the group. It saves a lot of time.

We might consider an upload limit for new designers at some point. It is a possibility. The entrance exam as well. We leave all options on the table and will implement what we need to implement to keep LogoGround running smoothly. For now I think limiting specific designers is working well.



DESIGNER
sculptor
2020-03-31

While poor entries might be troubling for those who do a lot of reviews, my observations from contest sites are quite different. A lot of great designers emerged online in the last two years. The level of competition incrised exponentially (just like coronavirus).

Logoground can either fend off this wave to protect veteran users from competition or rather open to it. I'm in favor of the second option as new designers will guaranty progress of the site and of our own as designers.

Taking exams is very unfriendly option in my view. It means closing LG to many professionals who simply won't waste their time for proving how good they are. Especially when they see a lot of more than average logos on sale.

Limiting number of entries for new designers (based on IP filter - not only login) seems to be the best option. This approach has one additional value: the less entries one person can upload the better quality can be expected.



ADMIN
ajleroux
2020-03-31

Thanks Sculptor. Yes, an entry exam isn't ideal. We keep it around as an option for the future, but currently no plans to implement. Interesting observation about new designers. I agree that new designers must be able to join and their fresh ideas are good for the site. We want to keep the doors open.

About limiting uploads: I like the current system. Some designers spend a lot of time with every logo and we want them to have the option to upload 100 logos, even if they are new to LG. Others upload 5-minute logo disasters and have to be slowed down. The current system (where we limit only specific designers) is doing a good job so far. Those designers are limited to one upload per day which hopefully encourages them to spend more time per logo - or at least to spend their time in tutorials and practice.



DESIGNER
Dmitriy Dzendo
2020-03-31
Edited 2020-03-31 by Dmitriy Dzendo permalink ANCHOR


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